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Voltage for ignition coil in RUN position

 
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Hello my Oltcit Club 11R suddenly won't start up anymore, the spark is very weak and the contacts are burning out in the distributor!!

I have:
- new points in the distributor, set at 0.40mm opening
- new condenser (capacitor) rated 0.27uF, properly connected
- everything tested with volt-meter, connections are ok.

Now the car barely runs, very un-even, when I floor the gas, it barely atays at 1000 RPM, then dies after one minute or so. The points in the distributor are SMOKING at this point and melted!! Also completely closed all the time.

I do not understand this problem, it happened all of the sudden, the car was working perfectly!

Maybe the voltage for the induction coil is too high when the key is in RUN position, I mean when you crank the car and the key is in START position, it should push 12V to the coil. But how many volts should it push to the coil in normal (RUN) position? Curently I have 10.80V, and I am vondering if the resistor is not burned out!!

Thank you very much and I am really sorry I do not speak Romanian, I am from Slovakia.

Please reply Thanks

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În urma este textul tradus folosind Google Translate:

Bună ziua mea Oltcit Club 11R brusc nu va începe mai, scanteia este foarte slabă și date de contact sunt de ardere în distribuitor!

Eu am:
- Noi puncte de la distribuitor, stabilit la 0.40mm deschiderea
- Condensator nou (condensator) 0.27uF evaluat, conectat corect
- Totul testate cu volt-metru, conexiunile sunt ok.

Acum abia masina ruleaza, foarte ne-chiar, atunci când am etaj gazului, abia atays la 1000 RPM, apoi moare după un minut sau cam asa ceva. Puncte în distribuitor sunt la fumat la acest punct și topit! De asemenea, complet închis tot timpul.

Nu înțeleg această problemă, sa întâmplat toate brusc, masina a fost de lucru perfect!

Poate de tensiune pentru bobina de inducție este prea mare atunci când cheia este în poziția RUN, vreau să spun atunci când manivela mașinii și cheia se află în poziția de start, ar trebui să împingeți 12V la bobina. Dar cum de multe de volți, ar trebui să-l împinge la bobina în condiții normale (a alerga) poziția? In prezent am 10.80V, iar eu sunt vondering dacă rezistor nu este ars!

Vă mulțumesc foarte mult și eu sunt foarte rău că nu vorbesc limba română, eu sunt din Slovacia.

Vă rugăm să răspundeți Multumesc If you have Yahhoo!Messenger, Add my ID: trsclub have you tryed another coil?a "dry" one for example,from any other car well I have tried a coil from skoda favorit, pretty common car around here But i think the coil is much different than the oltcit coil. With that coil the car starts when I floor the gas also using choke and barely stays at 1000 RPM on full gas. When I let go of the gas it dies, when I hold it and the car tries to rev the engine, it backfires, misfires and then falls back to 1000 RPM. After a minute or so it dies and you can't restart it again, because the points in the distributor are literally melted (the plastic melts from the heat causing the points to collapse)

b28kft - i do not have yahoo id, bud i do have icq if you like

Somebody please, just turn on your ignition (do not start), disconnect + and - from your coil, and measure voltage in those leads using a voltmeter, that reading would be very helpful! I do not have any other oltcit to try it on and the specs are ungettable

Also - when I open the points manually in the distributor using a piece of plastic, they arc, they are not supposed to do that, this destroys them in a very short time Looks like the capacitor is not working, but it is new, and the old one was good also. 1. wash the carburettor. it floads benzine;
2. there might be "hopped" distribution, of not evenly broken belts...

The resistance in the primary internal wrapping of the coil is max. 4,5 ohm. @kbs1: the firing order is 1-4-3-2, unlike many other cars, most commonly is 1-3-4-2. First check the correct order: the firing order is set correctly, I have checked it right now. The resistance of the primary coil winding is 3.5ohm, the "skoda favorit coil" has 1.3ohm resistance. Secondary winding of the "original" coil is 7.0 kOhm, favorit coil has 5.0 kOhm. I think I bought this car with the incorrect coil, but I'm not sure. It does not have an external resistor on it and is rated 12V.

@Zephirus - 1) I have tried that, I disassembled the carburetor twice and cleaned it witgh high pressure air. It still has exactly the same problem.

2) the timing belt appears to be in good condition, however I do not know how to check that properly.

The problem started all of the sudden, e.g. I bought the car and it worked perfectly for only one day, exactly for the test-drive and then drive home (how sad ). After I got home that evening, I have simply turned it off, left it outside for the night, and the other morning it would not start at all. Only after replacing the coil with "skoda favorit" one, the car starts but runs really bad as described above. I am puzzled about this issue, what can break over the night? There wrer no problems before that, the engine ran smooth. I am now troubleshooting for ~3 weeks, but I have really ran out of ideas.

I have also checked:
- spark plugs; changed, no difference
- spark plug wires, measured resistance, shortest wire has 4 kOhm and longest 18 kOhm. That is a little bit much, but it still should not break the car completely over night.
- distributor main plastic cap and distributor rotating high-voltage "finger" changed
- engine timing, set to 10 degreees before TDC on cylinder 1 [was correct all the time]
- tried to hook up ignition directly on battery "+" terminal - no difference
- fuel delivery to the carburetor, working
- checked all connections, the points are not shorted out
- checked the "run" coil voltage which is 10.80V (maybe much?)
- tried to clean the carburetor
- new points [3x] always set to 0.40mm maximal opening
- new condenser rated 0.27uF [condenser connection to ground and points ok]

I would say the problem lies in the ignition system, as the points are SMOKING after one minute engine run and are completely melted, so I always have to buy new ones, and it's expensive and does not fix the problem. Also the points arc when they are opening - is this normal?
kbs1 a scris:
2) the timing belt appears to be in good condition, however I do not know how to check that properly.


To check the timing belts (there are 2 of them), you can do as follows:

- after you dismantle the front of the car and the cover of the timing belt (it' quite tricky, you need a 42mm wrench to take off the fan), you bring the engine in the position, with the signs on the pulleys as shown in the image below



The sign on the cranckshaft pulley is quite small, you should see something like this:



- you count the theeth on each belt. you should have 50 theeth on the upper side of the right belt (the side with the fuel pump) and 33 theeth on the upper side of the left belt (side with the ignition distributor), from sign to sign.

But I am pretty sure that the problem is somewhere else though, giving the fact that something is destroying the points.

CAUTION! When you change the points and you adjust the gap to 0,4mmm, you must have the upper piece (the one that looks like a Mercedes Benz sign) mounted. Otherwise, the distance is compromised. cristi_s , the man has an electrichal problem, not timing belt or carburetor. Or disruptor-distribuitor (delco) or the coil. the problem is so f€&king simple... just put the battery to re-charge. Also your alternator does not charge. and also the battery is old...

A charged battery should be at 12,3...12,8 Vcc. When functioning, the motor should charge to 14,4 maximum! depending by turation it fluctuates.


To check the timing belts just put your finger behind the metal housing the big fan, near the wheels. If it is... there and also it's tensioned, it's ok.
Zephirus a scris:When functioning, the motor should charge to 14,4 maximum!

Min. 13.8V; max. 14.4V de la voltaj scazut in baterie nu ti se ard platinile intr-o veselie...ce naiba...
valib a scris:de la voltaj scazut in baterie nu ti se ard platinile intr-o veselie...ce naiba...

"from low voltage to your battery is not a joy platinum burn ... what the hell ..."
- true

@Zephirus "the problem is so f€&king simple... just put the battery to re-charge. " - The battery is new. This is a fact, I bought the car from an old man who bought the battery two months before selling it to me. It is shiny and strong, when the problem appeared, the battery was actually strong enough to crank the engine for two weeks. Well not all the time, but you know when trying. Battery has 12 volts. After that I recharged it, and it cranks excellent again

Also, I have measured compression in each cylinder - with cold engine it is 10 BAR on each cylinder, which is quite good.

I'm sure it's an electrical problem, maybe the ballast resistor burned out? You know, when you actually crank the car, and have the key in CRANK(START) position, 12V is pumped to the coil. When it is in the normal position, lower voltage should be pumped to the coil because of an resistor on that circuit [at least a friend of mine told me it is like that]. Now what is this lower voltage? I have 10.80V on coil when key is in normal position. Maybe it should be lower and this is causing the points to fry and melt and smoke??

Significant fact is that I did not touch the car before it broke, it stopped working without any reason.

For that matter, I find it unbelievable to be a problem with:

1) spark plugs
2) spark wires
3) distributor cap
4) distributor rotating "finger"
5) any form of engine / distributor timing

Also, it rained hard that night, and it seems that water gets inside the car, I have not looked into that any further.

Also - I believe that the coil I bought the car with is of wrong type. Any indication on what the specs of an Oltcit 11R coil are, or how does it look like?

Another info that might be inportant - the car is fully Romanian made, no French parts (as far as I looked, I did not see any) Where are you from?
An "original" OLTCIT coil looks like this:


why don't you try with some wires to directly supply the coil from the battery? Tried that, it did not work and fried the points even faster

Ok, so the "original" oltcit coil does not have an external resistor?

I am from Bratislava, Slovakia.

I have made photos of the distributor setup and the coil, you can download them here:

http://rapidshare.com/files/420438227/fotky-oltcit.zip

If you cannot download from rapidshare, please tell me an I will upload the photos some place else.

Maybe using the photos we will find the problem the coil wiring is corect?
normaly the green wire and the wire from the mobile point should be connected to the "-" conector of the coil,and the brown wire goes to the "+" conecter kbs1
The rapidshare link is expired.
Use http://imageshack.us
Browse, attach picture, upload.
Then, copy the Direct Link and paste it here. Rapidshare Link works.

I think is better to find a replacement for your ignition system (ignition coil + distributor + cap) - one with ignition module, here in Romania. I saw the pictures and it seems that the problem comes from the ignition coil. I think none of the ignition coils that you have there is suitable for the ignition system, that's why you fry the platinum.

I had the same problem with my car, and yes it came out of nowhere just after a night. Fixed the problem after replacing it with an module ignition system.

Please check the distributor axle not to "giggle" to the sides with the "mercedes" piece mounted. If it has this kind of deviation then the platinum won't stay as it's place.






Oameni buni, hai să punem mînă de la mînă să-i trimitem omului o aprindere electronică completă cu tot cu bobină.
iulicuta2000 a scris:the coil wiring is corect?
normaly the green wire and the wire from the mobile point should be connected to the "-" conector of the coil,and the brown wire goes to the "+" conecter


this is correct

@iulicuta2000 - thanks for uploading the pictures for me!

@NeaGeorgel - The axle does not move with the "mercedes" plate mounted and is perfectly still. It moves just a little bit to the sides with the plate unmounted, that's why I have to always adjust my points with the "mercedes" plate mounted.

So if I could find another "original" suitable igniton coil from say another destroyed oltcit, will it work? Or is something else damaged? It is quite puzzling for me why the car works for a long time with the improper coil and then just breaks.

@Zephirus - I would very like that, if I can get a cheap 12TRS system, that would be great.

In the meantime, would attaching the proper coil fix the problem? Also, can somebody please measure voltage from the "grey" wire or between the grey wire and the green wire with the ignotion normally on (engine is turned off), and with the coil disconnected? I have 10.80V and am afraid this is much (resistor could be burnt out). So if I buy new coil, or even a new ignition system, it might fry too! So just please check the voltage for me in an oltcit 11R, that would be really helpful.

Thank you! Is a bit small voltage to your coil... however one of our friends here says he sent you a complete ignition. Just be patient and buy a 11 wrench in the meantime. I do have the wrench.. but he has not sent it to me yet. I will first try another coil, and if that would not work, I will buy the new ignition system. In the meantime, does anybody still have the Oltcit club 11R with standard ignition system and the volt-meter at hand? I heard the voltage should be 9V, so 10.80 is too high. It must be 12V minus the curent you loose through the wires. So, 10,8 is good. And when starting, should not there be "higher" voltage to "boost" the spark for better starting? At least one guy told me it is like that. I can try it, but first I have to disconnect the starter motor so I can play with the key and measure.

ALSO: a free Lada 2105 ignition coil is on the way, that one should be rated 12kV. It might fit the Oltcit ignition system, but I'm not sure. hmm, a new Lada 2105 coil, might be working!! Looks more like the Oltcit coil, also, Lada 2105 has points and capacitor ignition!

Click pentru a vedea imaginea Click pentru a vedea imaginea Click pentru a vedea imaginea Click pentru a vedea imaginea 

Click on the images and then resize the window. It appears black, but it is just top of the photo It should work.

PAY ATTENTION when mounting it! Put the start key in the "contact position" - when the lights turns on on your dashboard - then measure the voltage to the wires to coil. Usually the gray/brown wire is "+" and the other one - green - is the tachometer.

Originally the oltcit coil has some mother-type junction so transfer them to the other "new" coil.

Good luck! Hey guys, it works!!! I have installed the Lada 2105 coil and the car fired right up! I did not even buy new points, I just sanded the original ones (the ones which I bought the car with) for like 6th time and it still runs Purrs like a kitten.

Now just to fix a major motor oil leak somewhere in the engine and we should be ready to go Yeah and also to adjust the clutch, and fix the brakes somehow (at higher speeds when you brake it brakes "more to the right"). Also fix the dash, tachometer and speedometer are pretty much stuck.

Well a lot of work left on this little puppy but finally it works and I can drive it

Thank you all for your amazing help and effort, really, bad coil was really the LAST thing on my mind ) Bad coil was really the FIST thing on my mind.
I'm glad that I could help you.
For the other problems, don't hesitate to write:) You allways find me on that MP What a coincidence... I'm planning a road trip in October, and the final destination is Bratislava. Maybe I can help you with some parts(not big parts, of course...). If you're interested, contact me and we'll discuss in detail.
Cheers Thanks, I will if necessary ) And of course, the eternal problem, the OIL LEAKS...
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